MudMan

I didn’t say it was a good thing either. It’s just… a thing. That happened.

I get that people get super wrapped into morality on this issue and rooting for the things they “support” or whatever they view it as, but that’s genuinely not how I look at it or how I’m framing it.

EVs are EVs. They’re a consumer product and also a part of a larger process of overhauling our energy generation, infrastructure and consumption. I do not have a horse in that race, beyond the obvious large-scale global impact, and even there I’m a lot more broad and neutral than the average online commenter, from what I can tell.

So no, it’s not a good or a bad thing. A company made a very strong bet on electrifying vehicles, and as part of that bet they invested very heavily in a charger network, which was very costly but also placed them in a position to control key parts of the infrastructure. It was a bold move, and it worked, kinda. But even that big investment couldn’t possibly be global, so all I’m saying is charger coverage is very uneven and there are regions where plug-in hybrids make sense as a transitional option where the charger network is moving slower in the absence of Tesla investment.

You keep trying to make this into part of an ongoing argument you’re clearly having with someone else as part of some online side-taking. I’m not sure which side you’re on, or the other guys are on or what the dividng lines are supposed to be. As a casual observer with an interest only in the big picture ramifications, I legitimately could not are any less about that.

I didn’t say it’s a bad thing at all. I said there are territories where they didn’t do it, so the charging infrastructure hasn’t been built up by a private company effectively losing money in pursuit of cornering a specific market, start-up style. Even in the US the coverage is uneven, and outside the US it’s basically nonexistent, so the headstart Tesla created to solve that issue is not the norm.

But… yeah, no, they made a bid for controlling the charging network and standard by losing money on a charging network the market didn’t support yet so they could kickstart a segment they were trying to lead. I don’t think even Tesla people would deny that.

I think plug-in hybrids are probably the way, particularly outside the US where Tesla hasn’t made a bid for controlling the charging network by overinvesting in proprietary charging spots.

At that point it’s probably the price that is the issue, but otherwise that seems to be the proposal that people are most comfortable with. The scalability of “EVs as tech toys” upstart approach has always been a bit weird, and without that leading the way as much I don’t know that there are incentives to fully transition without an in-between step.

It’s not my report.

It’s the report linked in the article that is misquoting it.

I don’t know if it’s right or not. I know that it doesn’t say what the article says it says. It doesn’t support claiming the Chinese political system is the only one that can fix climate change.

That’s as far as I can take it.

So no, I don’t think my interpretation is “even more misleading”.

Cool.

Not the point, though.

Again, the original article is about China is outperforming the west because it doesn’t have to deal with all that pesky free enterpriese, and it’s based on rephrasing data from a report in a misleading way.

I don’t care about the underlying argument, I’m clarifying what the report actually says.

If you must know, I’m all for decarbonizing energy generation through renewables and more than willing to consider boosting nuclear power. But that has nothing to do with deliberate misrepresentations for political reasons being misleading.

The statement is not that these changes require legislation, though, the claim is that legislation under capitalist (presumably also socialdemocrat?) regimes will not be enough and full centralized control in the vein of China, rather than liberal democracies, is required.

Which is some delusional crap, honestly. There is obviously the capacity to enact regulation in democratic societies, and it’s obviously been put to use for the “common good”. Anarchocapitalists may disagree that it’s useful or positive, but I refuse to give them ownership over representative democracy, or to give totalitarian regimes ownership over all functional regulation.

Plus the data itself is misrepresented, but that’s a different question.

This article is a very partisan read of the source material. https://iea.blob.core.windows.net/assets/6b2fd954-2017-408e-bf08-952fdd62118a/Electricity2024-Analysisandforecastto2026.pdf

Yes, China is ahead of the West in production of renewables, but it’s also skyrocketing (along with India) in energy demands, while the EU and the US remain flat or are going down. Renewables production will offset growth on both the US and China, according to the linked report. China’s forecast for reduction in coal energy generation is actually lower than in the EU and the US.

China

Renewable energy sources are expected to meet almost all the increase in electricity demand in our forecast period and start displacing coal-fired generation together with increasing nuclear generation. As a result, we forecast an average annual decline of around 1.5% in coal-fired generation over 2024-2026,

US

Renewable generation is forecast to grow annually by 7% on average over the outlook period. The increase in renewables is set to more than offset the additional electricity demand and displace coal-fired generation, which is expected to record a substantial 10% decline on average from 2024-2026. The United States dominates these developments, where around two-thirds of the electricity in the Americas is produced and consumed

EU

Over the outlook period, renewable generation is expected to grow at an average rate of around 9%, offsetting all of the additional electricity demand and displacing fossil-fired generation. Coal-fired power fell by around 26% in 2023 and is set to decline at an average 13% from 2024 to 2026. Gas-fired generation fell by 17% in 2023, and is forecast to decline by a further 7% annually to 2026. Nuclear output rose 1.4% last year and is forecast to grow by 2.2% annually to 2026, as the maintenance schedule of the French nuclear fleet progresses, and the reactors Flamanville-3 (France) and Mochovce-4 (Slovakia) commence operations according to announced plans.